Strategic Challenges of Underwater Warfare

00:00:03: Waves under the sea.

00:00:05: The podcast that makes the invisible

00:00:07: audible Things in the naval domain have become more complex, more frequent and diverse.

00:00:19: The underwater environment is not transparent.

00:00:21: It's highly opaque.

00:00:23: There are technological performance involved In being able to detect before detecting.

00:00:29: The challenge for TAL-S Is deliver an additional level of performance

00:00:36: Beneath the surface of oceans.

00:00:38: An entire universe escapes us A world without light, crossed by waves and signals that only state-of-the art technologies can detect an interpret.

00:00:48: Understanding and operating within the unique environment —that is The Underwater Domain— has now become a major challenge in today's geopolitical context marked by mounting tensions.

00:01:00: It is precisely to enable naval forces to maintain their operational superiority That the international group Thales had been developing for more than sixty years cutting-edge acoustic technologies and high performing underwater systems.

00:01:18: But how do you detect an adversary while remaining silent?

00:01:21: How do you adapt continuously in a ever changing environment, and shifting

00:01:25: woolen?

00:01:27: That's what we invite you to explore in Waves Under the Sea.

00:01:31: In this new podcast We will dive into The Heart of Underwater Warfare Its story its strategic challenges it's Technologies And It's Innovations.

00:01:42: Through short, accessible episodes you'll hear from the people who have made Thales' The Acoustic Technology expert it is today.

00:01:49: Before diving into the strategic depths.

00:01:52: let's take a closer look in this first episode at the major challenges facing today's naval forces.

00:01:58: These are some of questions our two guests Admiral Eric Chaperone Naval Defense Advisor at Tallis and Frank Besterd Mine Countermeasure Program Director Have agreed to answer.

00:02:10: Welcome to Waves Under the

00:02:12: Sea.

00:02:19: I am Admiral Eric Chaperon, I hold position of Naval Defense Advisor for the THALES Group.

00:02:26: My role is ensure that group keeps pace with very rapid changes taking place in naval warfare A lot happening At same time.

00:02:36: i need explain to the navies potential offered by new technologies currently being developed within the group helping to make the partnership between Thales and The Navy as effective as possible.

00:02:51: In fact, I should say navies since Thales serves fifty-two navies around the world.

00:02:57: Before joining Thales ,I spent my entire career in the French navy which means i served a total of forty years on the navy.

00:03:05: .I am a specialist an former officer in surface warfare.

00:03:09: I commanded four times three surface ships and the carrier strike group that is currently deployed, as you know in The Eastern Mediterranean.

00:03:18: Warfare is no longer exclusively naval.

00:03:21: it has become global involving multiple operational environments and domains And In French military terminology we talk about multi-domain, multi field meaning that operations take place simultaneously Hence the term naval aviation in The cyber domain, In the space domain itself and then possibly in coastal area.

00:03:50: In the land domain.

00:03:52: Another defining feature is the proliferation of drones across every environment.

00:03:58: They obviously play a major role And one Of the key developments over the past two years or so Is that drones are now being combined with missiles Making this threat extremely difficult to counter.

00:04:10: A third characteristic is the speed of execution.

00:04:13: Things are moving much faster than before.

00:04:15: with modern technologies, and in particular with digital technology powered by artificial intelligence The Speed Of Execution has become truly phenomenal compared to what we were seeing a few years ago.

00:04:28: In this context What Are The Main Challenges Navies Have To Face?

00:04:32: And How Are They Overcoming Them?

00:04:34: Admiral Eric Chaperon shares his perspective on the matter.

00:04:38: The main challenge for navies in general, and again this isn't just about the French Navy is the ability to operate in contested environments.

00:04:47: And the ability sustain those operations over time.

00:04:52: One of key qualities required is resilience.

00:04:55: All requires very specific capabilities including ammunition stocks.

00:05:02: It also raises a broader question of autonomy and of the relationship between navies in industry.

00:05:09: In today's context, you can imagine that TALES is highly mobilized in supporting the navies like The French Navy-The French Navy.

00:05:17: This means electronic warfare... ...the ability to implement & maintain robust connectivity.. ..and much more.

00:05:26: For TALes , the challenge is keep pace with increasingly demanding requirements.

00:05:31: TALS has do two things at once support navies in their day-to-day operations while also looking further ahead.

00:05:40: In other words, TALES must develop tomorrow's technologies ensuring that the next generation aircraft carrier entering service perhaps twenty years from now will deliver outstanding performance.

00:05:54: It is about serving todays submarines while insuring that the submarines of the Next Generation Will be as hard to detect and resilient.

00:06:03: That gap between the present and long-term isn't easy, but that group is built to handle it.

00:06:09: That's our daily challenge.

00:06:14: What role does underwater warfare play in todays changing global geopolitical configuration?

00:06:20: For Admiral Eric Chaperon It represents a crucial dimension.

00:06:24: Submarines are becoming more numerous More modern And more effective and capable.

00:06:31: In other words, the underwater threat is becoming increasingly present and increasingly powerful.

00:06:37: And it's not just growing in strength—it's also expanding!

00:06:53: This is a new kind of threat that make things considerably more complicated for defensive forces, especially in coastal areas.

00:07:02: These submarines and these underwater platforms in general including drones are becoming increasingly silent.

00:07:10: There are two ways to detect the submarine Passive listening or active detection using active sonars.

00:07:18: today The advantage increasingly lies with active sonar whose detection ranges have increased considerably compared with just a few years ago.

00:07:28: All this has implications for tactics, at TALAS we provide high performance equipment but ultimately it's the way sailors will use this equipment and combine.

00:07:39: that will give them operational advantage they're looking for.

00:07:43: Current tactic aimed to leverage the complementarity of different capabilities creating uncertainty for submarines and other underwater vehicles, And ultimately catching them by surprise.

00:07:56: That is the whole purpose of maneuvering.

00:07:59: Our role on our side Is to provide an additional level of performance To be able detect targets as far as possible in all conditions Including when dealing with very small objects.

00:08:13: Now that we've set this scene Let's turn it into detection.

00:08:17: Why is it so difficult to know what's going on under the water?

00:08:20: To help us understand, I'm joined by Frank Bestar.

00:08:23: Before joining TALES seven years ago he had an entire career as a officer specializing in underwater warfare within the French Navy.

00:08:32: He notably commanded both SSN for ship submersible nuclear or nuclear attack submarine and an SSBN.

00:08:44: Today, he is the program director developing a mine countermeasures

00:08:47: system.

00:08:48: The ocean water is by no means all homogeneous environment.

00:08:51: when I speak sound of my voice travels in roughly spherical waves generally and continuous way even if wind or atmospheric disturbances may have some effect.

00:09:01: broadly speaking the sound propagates continuously whereas under-the-sea there are multiple layers with different temperatures and salinity levels.

00:09:10: they act almost like layers of glass.

00:09:12: The acoustic wave is reflected and refracted, And therefore follows a somewhat tortuous path.

00:09:19: When you understand and master this environment when You know how to take measurements at different depths... ...you can predict How sound will propagates in the water.

00:09:27: That means that you Can very well or very poorly hear near the sound source Because the sound curve Will bend around that zone And conversely, hear extremely well at a larger geographical distance because that's where the sound waves converge and become concentrated.

00:09:44: So it is indeed both a field of knowledge and science you need in order to anticipate what will happen.

00:09:51: Being able to anticipate sound propagation is essential.

00:09:54: whether your deploying detection system or positioning submarine Depending on depth conditions can change dramatically.

00:10:02: You go from almost nothing from an area where you have a high degree of discretion, to a situation when you are vulnerable.

00:10:12: Or on the other hand ideally position to listen to others.

00:10:16: Interesting!

00:10:17: So why is it important for our country develop expertise in sonar systems and underwater technologies?

00:10:24: Because there's still fundamental physical reality today.

00:10:28: The Underwater environment remains far less transparent than air or even space domains.

00:10:34: In the under water domain operations can take place and even long afterwards, it can be extremely difficult to know who was there.

00:10:42: Who carried out the operations?

00:10:44: And what actually happened.

00:10:45: because It is a physical reality despite many technological elements its difficult to get around.

00:10:52: So for a Navy having The ability To understand this well to have smart and high performance sensors and also Having practical expertise in underwater maneuvering will Be fundamental.

00:11:04: It provides freedom of action, the ability to anticipate and a means of protecting against a number threats.

00:11:11: Because the better we understand this environment... ...the better can identify the threats that may emerge within it.

00:11:20: This relies on scientific knowledge Mapping in detailed understanding of marine environments including salinity currents distribution water masses.

00:11:30: So these are highly scientific data only obtained through long term work combining operational experience, scientific expertise and research.

00:11:40: You also need time at sea to take measurements observe and build that knowledge.

00:11:46: And the ability to operate confidently and understand all the characteristics of this environment gives certain navies an advantage.

00:11:54: they are The ones who can operate confidently in that environment?

00:11:58: Who have a deep understanding of all its unique characteristics.

00:12:02: To meet these challenges Tayles is developing a range of technologies.

00:12:07: Frank Bestar tells us more.

00:12:10: We develop sonar systems for submarines, surface ships and also for airborne platforms whether those are maritime patrol aircraft helicopters or unmanned aerial drones.

00:12:22: So each of these domains comes with its own specific technical requirements And dedicated operational means.

00:12:29: Overall however they're still very often based on PSO electric materials meaning materials that have the ability to transfer information by converting an electrical signal or an electrical impulse into an acoustic wave.

00:12:43: That acoustic wave, through the effects of reflection and diffraction can generate an echo... ...and provide information in both active and passive modes.

00:12:52: This gives us a very high level of sensitivity allowing us detect all characteristic vibrations & noises that may originate either from human activities.. ..or natural environment.

00:13:04: In turn, this enables us to build a clear and accurate picture of what is biological or naturally occurring.

00:13:10: And What is technical in nature?

00:13:12: And directly related to human activity.

00:13:14: today we are also seeing the increasing development of sensors based on accelerometers.

00:13:19: optical fiber technologies can Also be used as sensing elements.

00:13:23: in fact all these advanced high technology systems Are capable of converting vibrational information into an electrical signal which then provides the useful data displayed on the sonar console or processed by a digital system, or piece of electronic equipment.

00:13:38: So in this constantly changing context we can clearly see that technological advances are one of factors behind operational superiority?

00:13:48: Yes absolutely!

00:13:49: There is human expertise there's knowledge and anticipation.

00:13:53: they all play role but above-all theres technological performance.

00:13:58: It gives the ability to detect before being detected, to anticipate threats effectively.

00:14:05: This depends in particular on what we call classification criteria.

00:14:09: Classification is a term that we use very frequently in this field.

00:14:13: Classifications are the ability of distinguishing.

00:14:17: To make the right choice among many pieces you receive and identify which information is useful suspicious or reliable.

00:14:25: Then you can increase the level of confidence across different

00:14:47: pieces.